A Conversation with Anne Lamott 2007 
[00:00:43.08] - Welcome to our 12th annual Writer's Symposium by the Sea at Point Loma Nazarene University. I'm Dean Nelson on the journalism faculty at the University. And today, we have Anne Lamott, essayist, fiction writer, nonfiction writer, written books such as Operating Instructions, Bird By Bird, Hard Laughter, Joe Jones, All New People, Crooked Little Heart, Rosy, Blue Shoe, Traveling Mercies, Plan B, and a new book coming out next month called Grace, Eventually. 
[00:01:12.60] The Modern Library Association said her book, Operating Instructions, was one of the most significant nonfiction books of the last century. Significant. Anne, thank you so much for coming and being part of our symposium. 
[00:01:26.67] - You're welcome. Glad to be here. 
[00:01:34.55] - You were here with our symposium nine years ago, before anybody really knew who you were. And then after the symposium, your career just takes off. Are you drawing the same conclusions I am? 
[00:01:48.64] - Totally. Absolutely. Let's see, I don't-- is this where we were before, for one thing? 
[00:01:56.30] - Same place. Yeah. 
[00:01:57.09] - Oh, is it? It's funny, because I've spoken a trillion times now. And so, now it seems like this sweet, darling theater, like I know everybody here. And but nine years ago, it felt like the Fenley Field or something. It felt like there were like 15,000 people here and I was gasping for breath and sweating and overheating. And now it just seems really cozy and sweet. So, I've been talking too much, maybe. I talk a lot now. Yeah. 
[00:02:25.14] - The only difference is there aren't 15,000 people. All those other things were true. No. Here's what's also happened since then is that you had a documentary made about your life. 
[00:02:33.66] ANNE LAMOTT: Mm-hm. 
[00:02:34.32] - That must have been a little odd, not the movie, but I mean, just the experience of it. 
[00:02:40.83] - It was very odd because this wonderful woman, Freida Mock, who made the movie about Maya Lin and the Vietnam wall in Washington DC, followed me around with her crew for, off and on, for months and months and months. It was so odd. And, and so I tried to ignore it. But there'd be like all these guys, it would be like if you guys were in my kitchen, you know? And a sound person with one of those big muffy sound mufflers, whatever they are, and then Frieda, and then the assistants and I would be trying to pretend nothing was going on. 
[00:03:16.20] But it wasn't because I'm such a hot ticket item. It was because she's really a quirky film maker. And she is struck by unusual characters, let's say. So, but it was odd, the whole experience. Seeing my face like 10 feet tall on the screen was just really a nightmare. It took me a long time to recover from seeing my face and my butt on screen. 
[00:03:43.95] - Thought it was on IMAX there for a minute, didn't you? 
[00:03:45.91] - It was. 
[00:03:49.40] - Not just yours. I'm just talking about the, you know-- 
[00:03:51.56] - I understand. 
[00:03:52.05] - What it probably-- 
[00:03:52.80] - Generic. Yeah. 
[00:03:54.54] DEAN NELSON: Generic you. I heard you speak at a conference last year. And while people were gathering and getting situated, I heard this-- I overheard this comment before you got up to speak. This one woman was addressing another one. And she said, Anne Lamott is the only Christian writer who has ever told me the truth. 
[00:04:20.52] - Huh. 
[00:04:22.00] - What do you think that means? 
[00:04:25.56] - Well, I think it means there's a lot of pressure to, certainly within the Christian churches, to talk about the stuff that's sanctioned, scripturally, according to whatever like faction you're a part of, and which I mean in a nice way. But-- 
[00:04:45.48] - There are nice factions, aren't there? 
[00:04:47.60] ANNE LAMOTT: There are nicer factions. And, but no one agrees with anybody else anywhere. And but it's still really important, I think, for most people, most writers and lecturers, to sound very erudite, as if they're sure of what they're saying. And as if they're living the Christian life. And it just is going so much better than anyone could have ever hoped. And they don't hate anyone. And they just forgive easily. And they don't have awful moods. And they don't really care what their stomach looks like. 
[00:05:24.71] But when I was teaching writing, which I haven't done for a long time, I always told people to write what they'd love to come upon. Because then what they're longing for would exist. And I really live by that. And it just doesn't help me in any way at all if people are focused on trying to sound really good, like they've really got their Christian act together. Because what they've got is an act. And what really helps me is for someone to say something where I can go, oh, me too. Me too. Exactly. 
[00:05:53.73] I mean, that seems to me so much of what Jesus was able to do here was to listen and to nod and to go, you know, I really get it. This is a very strange fit for a lot of us. You know? And a lot of our lives down here on earth don't, it just doesn't feel like, it feels like mistakes were made because it is not very hospitable to be a human on earth 2000 years ago, or in 2007. 
[00:06:20.56] And so I try to, I've written books that I would love to come upon where people say, I hate everyone. I'm not a good forgiver. And I'm in an awful mood. And I'm just going to watch TV. And I don't feel like being friendly to you. And I'm sorry you're having an awful day. Go call someone else. You know? And I very rarely say, call someone else. I'm so amazed some people pick up the 2000 pound phone. And I am, too. 
[00:06:48.00] And I have been saved by the 2000 pound phone and by somebody being on the other end listening and nodding and saying, oh, you know what? I got it. I know exactly what that's like. And I went through that. And not long ago, I found that this helped. And I did this. And this helped me get out of myself. And this filled me back up. And it turned out I was very tired, and, or whatever. 
[00:07:10.14] So, but then that doesn't come across as perfect Christian values, a lot of the time. But I really can't bog down in what it sounds like to other people. I need to tell the truth as it's come through me and as it has been able to help me grow and get less crazy and less self-centered, which is the source of so much of my unhappiness. 
[00:07:37.14] - Well, virtually all of your writing, there are people in there, your fiction as well as your nonfiction, who are these imperfect and flawed and conflicted and unforgiving-- 
[00:07:47.82] - Annoying. 
[00:07:48.65] - Annoying and self-loathing people. And I'm wondering, in addition to just telling the truth about them, do you think one of the reasons you write about them so much is that, when you were growing up, you had to pretend that there really weren't those kind of people? You had to pretend that things were sort of perfect? 
[00:08:06.38] - No. My parents never pretended there weren't that sort of people. They talked about nothing else. You know? 
[00:08:13.14] - So you're writing about what you know. 
[00:08:16.26] - I was raised in a family that celebrated culture at all different levels. And the highest, which also meant New York, of course, and male, of course, to the more local. And that also means that there was just a tremendous amount of gossip and slander and schadenfreude. And my father was a writer, also. So, there are just certain things-- and you know this, I'm sure. And here, you're Dean Dean, you know? 
[00:08:52.16] And yet, I know that publication does not go that well, ever. It's always disappointing. And people make mistakes that really end up costing you a number of readers or decent reviews or whatever. And there's this part of us that's just so human. And I'm sick to say it, but they're just happy or relieved when someone else doesn't do that well, especially someone who's like writing about the same stuff or who is doing so much better, or has been until this bad thing happened to them. 
[00:09:25.01] So, I grew up in the kind of joy-- not the joy, but that kind of dark thrill. You know? And I grew up around a lot of drinking. And I grew up around a lot of energy that had to do with hating a lot of people. I mean, I grew up, when I was a child, Eisenhower was president. We didn't exactly hate, but then there was Nixon, you know, who we did. And I was like four and I knew to hate Richard Nixon. I was five or something. You know? 
[00:09:50.75] And so, and my parents were ferociously political. And so, again, it's just, there were a lot of people that I was told certain things about. And so to any extent that ever, on any given day, just briefly I'm not there, it's a triumph. You know? And so, when I write about these people, the people I write about are mostly a variation on me and the people I love most, who are exquisite and fearfully human. 
[00:10:22.61] - Yeah. Now, you've also said that I believe in a lot of false starts and messes. And I'm wondering, are you talking about writing or are you talking about life there? 
[00:10:35.99] - Really, more about writing, I think. Because I'm an extremely nervous case and a person with a lot of anxiety. And so if things don't go right pretty quickly with life sort of stuff, I mean, except with a kid, who you can't return, but like if things don't go fairly well fairly quickly with a person, it's really not going to be something I put a lot of energy into. I feel-- because a friend died so young and my dad died so young-- I feel constantly aware of how precious and short this is, our time on earth. 
[00:11:09.59] And so, if I find somebody slightly annoying, I might, I'd probably give them a second chance. And then I feel like look, thank you for sharing. This is not going to, this is not going to work for me because I can't stand to be with you. Or it's not even going to be that. It's going to be, it's going to drive me crazy every time you say that, that thing that's such a joke, or every time you play that little game. I don't have the time. 
[00:11:36.68] But with writing-- I was saying to Tricia on the way over here-- the only part, I don't love publication. I'm going through a book tour in a month and I don't love it. And I like doing this. And I like you. And this part's OK because it's-- well, first of all, I'm getting paid. So there's that. But for a book tour, for a month, you might have four interviews a day and no one's paying you. And sometimes people haven't read the book. I did an interview two days ago with a woman who was trying to pretend she'd read the new book. But she was asking questions from Traveling Mercies, which is eight years old now. 
[00:12:08.99] And I don't like interviews. And I hate traveling. I just completely hate traveling. I don't believe in air flight. And my back hurts. And I'm tired. And I have a little arthritis. And I'm sort of old. And I'm set in my ways. And I want to be with my animals. And that is just what's true. I love to be at home. I would love, you know, I love, I hate to miss my church. I have hate-- I have this little schedule and it serves me. It means that I can have a lot of freedom in my life if I stick to this schedule. But-- 
[00:12:40.74] - We'll try to wrap this up real quickly, then, for you. 
[00:12:43.45] - No, no. I mean, I'm not, I don't have a schedule today. Because I don't have a, I'm not in a hurry for a plane. But so, with real life, I am not, I don't have a lot of failures and false starts, except as being a human and a mother, of course. Being a parent, you know, it's nothing but false starts and setbacks and three steps forward and two back and one forward and three back. But with writing, like I was saying to Tricia, the only part I really love is like the second and third draft. The fourth, by the fourth draft, you're getting a little sick of it. 
[00:13:18.83] But a second, when you start a second draft, the worst is over. There's a lot there to work with. There's probably way too much. But that's so much better than the blank pages and the voices inside your head that are spewing out this critical judgment and exhaustion with your little effort. But with a second draft, it's like possible again. And it's like, it's like you've gathered all the clay from the river and it's soft and malleable and black and rich. And you've got it on the big slab of plywood and you're working with it. And I find that part a real pleasure. 
[00:13:59.85] - Actually, you've talked about a draft that you call a dental draft. What do you mean by that? 
[00:14:06.72] - Let's see. Well, I remember in Bird By Bird, I said there was the downdraft, the updraft, and the dental draft, I think is. And the downdraft is the first and maybe second draft, but always a first draft where you just get it all down. And it's awful. It goes very badly. And the writing is terrible. And also, it doesn't amount to anything. And also, you're beating a dead horse. And so that's the downdraft. And the only thing is at the end of the day, you feel great because you get a credit. Because you did it. You did your creative work that day. 
[00:14:42.24] The updraft is you clean it all up. You shape it up and you clean it up and you take away probably an easy third of it. And you start to figure out, you figure out the holes that are left behind. And the shape is appearing to you by now. And there's no way to short, to short cut this and make the shape, you can't get the shape to appear to you. I don't know why that would be so hard. But it just doesn't work that way. 
[00:15:11.31] And the dental draft is where, is the really fun part where you've got a draft that's really a story, that it begins somewhere that naturally, or fairly naturally flows to where it ends. A book is, for me mostly, it's a way across a lily pond where you start here and your readers don't know what's going on much. And you say, this is where we are. This is pretty-- and the first page is sort of, without saying that that's what you're doing, you're saying this is what this book is going to be about. This is who I am. And this is my take on things. 
[00:15:42.17] So you get into the pond. And then you land on various lily pads along the way. And it's kind of always erratic. And sometimes you can't see them. And then you land on one. Maybe you stay too long. Maybe you don't get to stay long enough. And at some point, you're at the other end of the pond. And you leave your reader and you say, I hope that was useful, or whatever. And so with the dental draft, you're going through it. And it's like being more of a watchmaker at that point. 
[00:16:09.65] It's more craft at that point than spew and desperation and fixing and fixing and spackling and caulking and fixing and cutting and cutting. It's more like crafting each tooth. And it's trying to figure out how they meet, top to bottom, and whether or not each one is strong enough and whether or not some of them need to be pulled or whatever. Some of them are just, need some help. Some of them are fine. I mean, strangely enough, some of them are fine. So that's the draft I enjoy the most. 
[00:16:44.97] - Now, you've described successful writers and say that it's somewhat of a myth, that being a successful writer solves all of your problems. And in fact, here's what you've said. My writer friends, and they are legion, do not go around beaming with quiet feelings of contentment. Most of them go around with haunted, abused, surprised looks on their faces, like lab dogs on whom very personal deodorant sprays have been tested. Most of my students do not want to hear this. Why is that? Why is that the case? You would think that that would solve all the problems. 
[00:17:26.43] ANNE LAMOTT: Being successful? 
[00:17:27.52] - Being a successful writer. 
[00:17:29.37] - Yeah, but we know from every other walk of life that it never worked. You know, it's not like actors and actresses and performers feel happy and fulfilled and like they've arrived. You just feel like, you feel always kind of anxious and sort of vaguely bitter because people have let you down. Or your agent's messed up. Or your, you know, the weather was terrible and people didn't show up for the event. Or somebody that you know who's not nearly as good as you did so much better. 
[00:18:02.41] And so I think that, I mean, I think the most awful thing on earth would be to be a famous actor. I just do. I think it would be hell. And yet, you would live in a place where, when people came in with their cameras, you would look like you were in the top 1 percentile of 1 percentile of those who had arrived into some sort of perfect life. I think it would be hell. And yet, it still remains the American dream. 
[00:18:29.76] And see, what I think would be great news for writers-- I haven't talked about writing in so long. It's funny. No one ever wants to talk about writing any more. It's always faith. 
[00:18:43.37] - Oh, there's that. 
[00:18:44.97] ANNE LAMOTT: Oh, that. But what I always think would be the good news was that, I'm going to start another book after this book tour is over. So that probably realistically means early May. Because I'll leave in a few weeks and I'll get home in 20th or so of April. And I'll detox and, you know, I'll do all my things. And then I'll start a book in May. And the good news is that it won't go well for me, either. And the fact this book that's out in March is my 11th book. And for the most, they're all in print, you know? 
[00:19:22.43] - Joe Jones is coming back, isn't it? 
[00:19:24.01] ANNE LAMOTT: Joe Jones came out in print a couple of years ago. Yeah. And so, you would think that when I sat down, I could assume certain things about myself. You know? That it will be published. And a certain kind of person will like it. And that I'll be paid for it. And I don't assume any of that. I sit down and it's starting over. It's like it's sufficient unto the day. Because I'll sit down and I will have a vague idea, for instance, I think it's a novel. And I have an idea about a couple of the characters. And I have an idea about one site, one location. 
[00:20:04.19] And I have something I love to go by, which I love books about good and evil. Isn't that funny? But I do. I love Stephen King's The Stand. And I'm not somebody who's like a big Christian good and evil person. And Bush just makes me crazier than I have time to express today, with that, with that Manichean, everything's black or white. And you're with us or you're for the terrorists. You're behind me and Don Rumsfeld or you're for the terrorists. But yet, I also know in a certain way, or believe in a certain way that it's true. That there is a spiritual battle. Who's that guy, that famous Christian writer that writes the wild novels? Michael, no? 
[00:20:50.30] - Frank Peretti? 
[00:20:51.47] ANNE LAMOTT: What's his name? 
[00:20:51.89] - Frank Peretti? 
[00:20:52.70] - Frank Peretti. Yeah. When I had just gotten sober, it was 20 years ago, things were so raw and primitive. And I'd gone from such a weird alcoholic life to this equally weird sober life that that, I could read that and I'd feel like that is exactly what it's like. And I know those of you that are clean and sober know what I'm talking about. Because it really is dramatic. It's either that you are clean and sober or you're not. And when you're not, it's so not. I mean, it's so grossly, violate, painfully not. 
[00:21:23.77] But I mostly don't believe in that black and white reality. But I do know that I have been acted upon by evil. I understand from evil. I know that I, I know it's a continuum. And I know that there is some evil in me, even though I'm made entirely of God and of Spirit and of what? I mean, I happen to, when I read other books like Stephen King, or let me think of another, I just love them. I feel very alive. Because I can identify with these kind of regular old humans with their neuroses and their fixations and the stupid stuff we obsess about and the grudges we hold and all that. 
[00:22:09.51] And yet, there's something that really means there's a point to all of this. And the point is to be a part of the goodness and to be a part of those who are carrying water to the thirsty and sitting with a very old or flirting with the very, very old, lonely people at the health food store. However you can do goodness, one day at a time, that that's the meaning. And so I have a vague idea that I would like to attempt something like that, that didn't make my non-Christian readers just run screaming for their cute little lives. 
[00:22:39.74] But that's really about all I'm going to know. I have a bunch of notes. I've been talking to some people. But I'm going to sit down whatever the first Monday-- and I would only urge you to start on a Monday. It's like a diet. You could never, you could never have any hope of success to start a diet on a Thursday. It's ridiculous. And you should never start a book on a Thursday. It needs to be a Monday. Really. Just trust me on this. 
[00:23:09.64] And when I sit down on the first Monday in May, I'm going to feel like, what are you thinking? I don't even know if you actually believe in good and evil. I don't even know if you actually want to write a novel. A novel takes me years. It takes me three and maybe four years. Non-fiction, I can complete a collection and really craft it in two. And I'm going to go through all the exact stuff that any of you who are writers, singers, artists, dancers-- whatever your creative life is about-- that's what I'm going to go through. 
[00:23:42.49] And at the same time, what makes it a little tiny bit dicier is the extremely high level of arrogance, you know, in tandem with that or rubbing against it like the plates of the earth. 
[00:23:57.56] - What's the arrogance? 
[00:24:00.55] - Look, I mean like 350 people, I think these people had to pay, right? The chapel people didn't pay? 
[00:24:06.23] - That's true. That's true. 
[00:24:08.45] - So, you should have come to the chapel. It was free. And, like that all of these people would pay to read my books or to make it seem as though I had something to say. And it's like a way of, it's stamping my parking ticket, validating my parking ticket. And so like, definitely today my self-esteem is good. Believe me. 
[00:24:31.61] I mean, there were like 1,000 people in the chapel and they were really nice. They were really chapely people. And when I leave here, of course I'll have good self-esteem because people are here and responsive. And because, you know, you have said certain things. And the people that, when I'm signing books, will say certain things. But then it's not going to last all the way home. 
[00:24:53.69] - That doesn't-- 
[00:24:54.21] - No. Oh, no. 
[00:24:55.48] - That doesn't get you to the next time? 
[00:24:56.93] - I won't get a good night out of this. Oh, no. Oh, no. Because when I get home, the mail will have come. And there will be all sorts of phone calls. And there will be people who want the most annoying things. And it won't be that they want the most annoying things. It will be my reaction to what they want. And I have to leave Friday morning. I get to leave Friday morning to go visit my kid. But I have to leave at dawn. And so I only have tomorrow. And then the self-pity will kick in. 
[00:25:23.55] And so, the self-pity will, I would say-- because I'm also going to have kind of a long time at the airport-- I would say by the time I'm on the plane, and then I'll become terrified because the flight will be bad, because all flights are bad, because just by virtue of the fact that you're in the air. And it's ridiculous. So by the time I have had to struggle to help keep the plane in the air-- but also I'll be in first class. So then the self-pity and the self-loathing will-- because they had to pay for first class because my lecture agent made them. 
[00:25:56.11] And all of this will come together. And my back hurts. And I'm old. You know? And my back hurts. It just does. I accidentally became 53. And I was so codependent for so long that I said yes to everything. And what I meant to say was no. I cannot help you move. And I was not able to stop helping people move til I was like 48, almost five years ago. And so my back hurts. And it hurts because of my sickness. You know? 
[00:26:23.80] And so all of that will conspire to-- when I get home tonight, I'll be very happy because my animals will be there. But the self-esteem will be shot. And then, plus, I know that everyone here thinks I must be a real writer cause there's books here and there's you and there's the questions and there's this and all that. But I get home, it's what all of you have, it's what you doing your next book have. What's the point? Does the world really need another Dean Dean book? 
[00:26:53.53] - Will you stop it with the Dean Dean? 
[00:26:55.84] ANNE LAMOTT: Does the world need another Anne Lamott book? What could I possibly have left to say? I have just shoehorned it all in everywhere. So whatever you are going through when you think about it, like, if you do an event, I know your self-esteem is good. You're human. It's wonderful to have people think, it's wonderful also to be helpful. It's wonderful that people can have felt comfort from something you've written. Just incredible. And that will carry me to the end of the plane ride. And that's true. 
[00:27:27.41] - OK. Now, let me ask you something about the arc of the books that you've done and the fact that you just kept doing it. It was five books before you considered yourself successful. 
[00:27:40.87] - Well, it was five books before I could make a living at it. 
[00:27:43.87] - Yeah. So what kept you, like, after the second one? 
[00:27:46.42] - The book where I got enough of an advance to not have a second job was Bird By Bird. So that was six books in. 
[00:27:55.96] - And that's when you were here the last time, was Bird By Bird had come out. 
[00:27:59.74] ANNE LAMOTT: Was it? 
[00:28:00.59] - Yeah. And so-- 
[00:28:01.73] - No. That can't be right. Because I was here in, what did you say? '99? 
[00:28:04.69] DEAN NELSON: '98. 
[00:28:05.54] - '98. I think Bird By Bird came out much earlier than that. I think it came out about '95. Didn't it? Because Traveling Mercies came out-- 
[00:28:12.55] - Are you disagreeing with me? 
[00:28:13.75] - Yeah. No. I don't know, actually. I think she has a Bird By Bird. 
[00:28:17.21] - Yeah. OK. I don't want to see it. 
[00:28:17.74] - I know I should know. No. I think you're probably right. What year? '94. 
[00:28:22.44] - Oh yeah. OK. Thanks a lot. My point was-- 
[00:28:27.98] ANNE LAMOTT: OK. 
[00:28:28.79] - My point was that you kept doing these books. And you still weren't making a living at it. What made you think that you ought to just keep doing it? 
[00:28:39.05] - Well, I think there was something in me that thought I had something to say and a voice to say it with. By then, by All New People, which was my fourth novel, I got $10,000 for it, I remember. And it was two years in the writing. And then there was a little tour. It was my first little tour. But $10,000. And I'd been sober. It was my first sober book. And it came out in '89 when Sam came out. And I was living on air. I was living on air and faith and the goodness of people and freelance stuff. 
[00:29:16.76] And so, I must have known by then that all these people-- if I did a reading, people would come. And I felt like I-- and I also got this Christian thing going. You know, that inside of me, where I thought, oh my god. And also, I didn't want to come out of the closet about that. You know? And I wanted to kind of-- but I had a Christian character. My first Christian character was in All New People. And I felt like that, by then, was what I wanted to come upon. 
[00:29:42.74] And I'm actually completely unemployable. I completely am unemployable. I don't have any college degrees. And, you know, I'm difficult. And I'm odd. I'm tired. And I really like to walk on the hills early in the morning. And I would make me late for, I'd be late all the time. It would be impossible. It be impossible for me to hold down a real job. And so, I kept writing these books because they seem to be helping people. Because people would read them and go, yeah, me too. Oh, my god. I can't believe you said that. That's exactly what it was like for me. 
[00:30:19.79] When I wrote Hard Laughter, my first book, I got $7,500. But I got to write a book about how much I love my father that he got to read while he was still alive. And I had already gotten an advance for it. And so he knew I was going to be published at the same place I am now, which is Riverhead, which is Viking Penguin. 
[00:30:39.47] And so, there were no books like that. There were no books that were irreverent or about someone dying. And it's very painful. But it's also funny. And it's also the family talking about stuff having to do with that the father is almost certainly going to die. But they're being funny. And they're being real about it. 
[00:31:00.00] And most of the books, same with like with Operating Instructions, I partly felt with Operating Instructions, which came out in '93, that I would have loved to found a book where one mother somewhere said, I am so bored. I am seriously considering suicide. And I so hate this today. And nothing is working. And he has colic. And we have no money. And I am going crazy. 
[00:31:28.40] And most of the books then said, they'd say, they have a section on colic. Sometimes the child responds to soothing outdoor noises. You know? They don't respond. And especially at 10 o'clock at night, you're going to take your horrible, sobbing child, who's obviously in pain, and take him outside to hear crickets? 
[00:31:49.22] When, you know, and you try everything that's in these baby books. And then finally, a regular old person says to you, you know what? There were days where I couldn't get out of bed. There were just days where I had to call in someone and say, I'm sorry. I cannot do this today. And I know I need to be able to. I'm just saying, I really hate this. And they'd say, oh my god. Let me come over there. Let me get a whole, let me go get a whole cake for us. And I want to tell you some stories. I want to tell you what it was like for me. 
[00:32:21.14] And as soon as someone will tell you the truth of what it's like for you, you get your buoyancy back. You know, it's like a line in Plan B, laughter is carbonated holiness. You know, you get your carbonation back. And you, you can keep-- as soon as you can laugh again, you're OK. But you don't start to laugh again sitting in your own mentally ill, frightened, freaked out, exhausted little head. So a lot, most of my nonfiction has arisen from the belief that if I could help people recognize themselves and maybe get their sense of humor back, it would help them be OK. And that's why we're here is to help everyone else be OK. 
[00:32:59.81] - Well, in fact, you had said Traveling Mercies came out of your discovery that people really wanted to talk about faith and belief and spirituality in authentic terms, not in those sort of self-loathing kinds of ways. And which I think is interesting. Because weren't you raised to think that Christians were idiots? 
[00:33:19.59] - Yes. I was raised. I raised to believe that Christians were desperate and that it was just preposterous. My father's parents had been Christian missionaries in Japan. And he hated the Church, especially Presbyterians, which I ended up being. But it wasn't like an act of aggression. Because I adored him, for one thing. And he'd been dead for seven years, I think, when I converted. But I was raised to believe that it was an opiate, you know, that religious belief. 
[00:33:50.75] But god, my pastor the other day-- this is really off the track-- but it's Black History Month. And she gave a sermon two Sundays ago called neck bone theology. It literally changed my life. And what it was about was, in our church, which is about half black and half white, on the last Sunday of Black History Month, we have a soul food feast. And half of it's great. And half of it is just, to me, beyond the pale. You know? And I can't-- I've eaten the chitterlings so that everyone will love me more. I have eaten the squirrel that they send away for from their relatives in the Deep South. 
[00:34:27.49] - You had to send away for squirrel in Northern California? 
[00:34:29.42] - You gotta have the frozen squirrel. 
[00:34:31.48] - Oh. 
[00:34:32.22] - Yeah. And I have done it. And it's, and to me, I don't get it. And so, and one of the foods is neck bones. And so Veronica started out by saying, some of you here do the neck bones. Right? And all these people were bobbing up their heads because you break up a bit of neck bone. It doesn't seem like there's much meat. And you start to suck on it. And turns out there's lots of meat and juices. And then you take it out and it's kind of clean and pristine and you-- job well done. 
[00:35:02.20] And slaves had to live on garbage. They lived on whatever was of absolutely no use to no one else. Like the neck bone, no one in their right mind would eat a neck bone. So they would boil them. Or hambone, with nothing left visible. They would pass a hambone around and around and around and around to flavor the beans. And the lesson was that, what Jesus helps us do is to take what looks like, to the world, something just utterly ridiculous. 
[00:35:34.09] And to find true nourishment and true deliciousness and true-- and what she said was that the slave masters handed down Jesus to the slaves to control and quiet them so that they wouldn't act up. Because they believed that if they were good slaves, when they died, they'd go to heaven. They'd go to the slave sections of heaven. Right? And what happened was that the slaves took it in, like neck bones. And they took it in and it fed them. And they got this incredible taste and nourishment of Jesus into them. And then they hit the fields, you know? 
[00:36:15.97] And they sang it. And they disguised it. And they said, follow the drinking gourd, as a way to get you to the other side of the Ohio River where you were in the North. You weren't a slave anymore. Or a way in the water, which you could, everyone at first thought was about the roiling of the baths in the temples that were so healing. But that was about, you got to get to that water, cross over. And so that it actually had the-- and then when they took away their singing because it made them too nervous, then they started making any sound at all that they can, you know, that was beautiful, that became like Stomp, if any of you have ever rented Stomp. It's exhilarating. It's life giving. 
[00:37:01.57] And so, what she said was instead of it being an opiate or a way of containment, they accidentally gave the slaves the most explosive recipe for liberation that the world that ever seen. They had given the slaves a combustible. And I just loved the way that that was couched. And unfortunately, I can't remember what that might have been an answer to. But, do you remember what the question was? 
[00:37:36.56] - No. My mind drifted a long time ago. It was about Christians being idiots. 
[00:37:45.72] - Christian being idiots. Yeah. The thing was about, instead of it being, for me, as for the slaves, as for everyone who has been very, very darkly damaged and oppressed and just felt like they had nothing but garbage to work with, that it turned out my parents were wrong. And my parents' lives were only redeemable one way. And my father was a well-known writer, Kenneth Lamott. And my parents had a life that, to other people's lives-- I mean, we didn't have a lot of money but we were fine. 
[00:38:20.61] My parents bought a house. We lived in the wealthiest county in California, I think, Marin. And they bought a house there for $20,000 when was six. So we didn't have a huge house but we lived in Marin. And everything looked great. We had a chandelier. You know? We had chandeliers. And inside, they had what all people have until they find the spiritual path where they can every day be given a little bit of light to see by and people to walk with. So, you know, and something to turn to. 
[00:38:55.05] And so, they were really wrong. You know, and my mom's life after, in her last 10 years-- well, she ended up with Alzheimer's. And that was pretty miserable. But even so, without this thing that they told me was such idiocy, their lives were rendered pretty scary. And I've had some very heavy, scary stuff happen since I got sober and since I found a church. And it's never washed me away. You know, the rivers could never wash me away. So-- 
[00:39:30.60] DEAN NELSON: When you mention your mom, you've written about some really personal things in your life, about yourself and about your own body, but also about your son and about your mom. And where is the-- you had to have had conversations with these people about where is it exploitation and where is it, I just need to tell the truth about something? 
[00:39:54.60] - Uh-huh. It's a good question. I get asked that a lot about Sam. Like, how does Sam feel that you're writing about him? So I can also answer that. Well, with Sam, it was so clear to me once I started writing about him at all, once I wrote Operating Instructions, that it was life giving to many, many other people. But more than that, for me, it was a way of capturing something that, as you know, is so fleeting. 
[00:40:23.40] And you can have pictures. And we didn't have a video camera. But we have us on video, other people's video. It's just not the same as a story. I mean, it's really true that stories feed us in a way that nothing else can. And so, to capture these stories and to capture just moments gave me such an unfair advantage in the world. Because it was like each of those moments was like a jewel. And the jewel box was the spine of the book, spine and cover of the book. 
[00:40:51.55] And so then when I started writing Traveling Mercies, I felt with Sam that the boundary was always will he be really glad I wrote this. Will he read it and just be so glad? And all those stories take a month. You know, everything I write takes close to a month to get it right. And it's eight, seven, eight, nine, 10 pages. I mean, it's very painstaking for me. But was he glad that I not only wrote it, but published it? And so I've kept a very fierce boundary. 
[00:41:29.08] And then when he got older, which is to say the stories that are in Plan B and the stories that are in the new book, Grace, Eventually, he was old enough-- he was 10, 11, 12, older, 12, 13-- that I could just check it out with him. I could say, is it OK if I write about that story about when you were so awful outside of Anthony's? And sometimes, you want to read it? No, it's OK. I trust you. 
[00:41:55.20] And then there's a story-- oh, not in this book, in the new book-- about a day when things were so bad. And he had lied to me, 17 and driving. And I can only excuse myself by saying that he was 17 and he'd been driving. And it was just awful. And I slapped him, which I've had a real position against, me slapping him ever. And I wrote this story. And I asked him if I could write it. And he said, well, it depends how I come off sounding. And-- 
[00:42:26.47] - That's fair. 
[00:42:27.20] - It's totally fair. And so I said, I think we're going to sound equally crazy. But we're both going to sound awful. And he said, well, I would want to read it first. So I wrote it up. And I wanted to publish it in Salon. And again, I'm so starved for stories of people with 17-year-olds who have hated aspects of that more than they could have ever imagined. Don't get me started. So, I wrote it. 
[00:42:56.75] And he did object to some of it. And he-- in no uncertain terms. And I changed it. And I changed it. I rewrote it. And I got, I heard what he said, was the main thing. And I shaped it and crafted it. Took some stuff out, added some stuff, and gave it to him. And he said, now it's OK. Then I published it in Salon. And as you know, there were 200 vituperative letters, with maybe-- 
[00:43:18.86] - That was the harshest I've ever heard anybody criticize you-- 
[00:43:22.03] ANNE LAMOTT: Yeah. 
[00:43:22.39] - Was for that. 
[00:43:23.06] ANNE LAMOTT: It was the harshest I've ever been criticized. There were about five-- no, there were about 50 letters of the 200 that said, oh, stop. Or, do you have kids? Like, if you had kids, I think, maybe you would not have such an outrageously self-righteous tone. But, I mean, I'm not saying it's OK to slap your kid. But I'm just saying it happened. And it's really within the realm. It's something that might just have happened to someone you love, or quite possibly to you when you were a child. And so, there were great letters. But there were mostly not great letters. They were awful. 
[00:44:00.23] - They were pretty vicious. 
[00:44:00.92] - One of them, one of them compared me to the pedophile priests, in terms of that when you start excusing abuse, child abuse, it doesn't really matter how far in you've gotten. And so that was sort of, got my attention. But so with this piece, again-- and Sam was furious about the response to it. He was just furious because he-- his friends were 17-year-olds. And he knows how awful they are. And because no one thought to ask, is this something that Sam was OK with. And so, I clear everything was Sam. 
[00:44:40.88] And he, there's a section in the new book called Sam Wheel, because Sam and then the word wheel, partly because he's driving now. But when he was little, he couldn't say Samuel. He couldn't say L's til the middle of kindergarten. He said Sam, Sam Weo. For Samuel-- S-A-M-W-E-O. And then, one horrible day that I've written about, I think in Traveling Mercies, He came home from this nice Christian kindergarten he went to, Lutheran kindergarten. I don't know if you have like a big, huge hostility with the Lutherans, or whatever. 
[00:45:15.92] - No. We're at detente right now. 
[00:45:17.06] - Are you at detente? What about the Mennonites? Are you OK with the Mennonites? 
[00:45:20.37] - No. Mennonites, they don't carry guns. 
[00:45:22.25] - OK. That's right. So they're not an immediate threat, OK, to the Nazarene. 
[00:45:28.07] - You're fine. 
[00:45:28.55] - OK. So, he came home and his teacher finally taught him to say L's. And it kind of broke my heart, because-- but he was saying things like, I love my lunch. And then pretty, then for a long time he called himself Sam Wheel, because he still couldn't pronounce Samuel. But I thought Sam-- he knew that Samuel was a very elegant name, two books in the Bible. And it's just a fancy name. It's a beautiful name. But couldn't say it. So he was Sam Wheel. So that was always one of my nicknames for him. 
[00:46:03.33] So there's three pieces about him. And I really loved them. And I showed them all to him a couple of times. And then I sent-- he's off right now-- and I sent it to him. And he read it and just loved it. Can't show it to his friends fast enough. And that was another thing that very helpful was that his friends loved the Sam stories, everywhere. And it gave him a certain cache, a word I have not used yet today. 
[00:46:27.71] And then with my mother, which is a more painful question, what I'd always done, I'd always had a really hard time with my mom. And I'd always been a really great daughter. And that's kind of the standard for American daughters is that you might be just driven crazy and your life might be based on them being the foil, them being the model of who you're not going to be when you grow up. And yet you're a really devoted daughter and you take really loving care of them and include them and whatnot. 
[00:47:01.94] And so up until, I guess it was Traveling Mercies, I had written only the stuff I knew would make my mom feel better about herself. Because that was mostly what our relationship was, was me finding other ways to help my mom feel better about herself. And she didn't have a spiritual core. She didn't have a center. She had this sort of way of the world, which is trying to get to the surface to look good and to look a little better and to live in a way that maybe other people envy. 
[00:47:30.26] And so, I would just, like in Operating Instructions, oh, my god. It's just like a sweet little love lettery mentions of her here and there. Where actually, half the time, I just was like, I cannot let that woman into my house ever again. I don't care how long I live. I will meet her at coffee shops. You know? And then I finally wrote one piece in Traveling Mercies and it broke her heart. 
[00:47:57.33] And it was about, it was about being on the, taking her out to the beach for a holiday, and Sam already being out there, and how everything she did was just making me crazy, you know. And all the extra sweaters she needed to bring even though it was like 100 degrees out. And the extra sweater and the fussbudgety-ness. And the kind of sucking on me. And if something wonderful happened and I brought it up, she would kind of use it against me in some way. Because she wasn't, she didn't know how to esteem me in a way that was like, like anyone here might. You know? She didn't have the owner's manual. 
[00:48:42.21] Because so what, like I'll give you one example from years before. The first time I got on The New York Times best seller list was for Operating Instructions. And my father had tried for the 25 years he was a writer. And I've been trying for five books. And I finally sleazed my way on. And I called my mom. I called my mom, you know, because that's what you do because you want your mom to get it and to, and you want to make her so happy and proud of you. 
[00:49:07.65] And I call her, mom, mom, guess what? I just talked to my publicist. And I'm, and next Wednesday I'm on the, I'm on The New York Times, I'm on The Sunday Times bestseller list. And she said, oh, honey, that's great. And there was the beat of a half second. And then she said, anything else? You know? So my loins were so girded against my mother with her own self-loathing, projecting that insatiability onto me. 
[00:49:35.19] So, I wrote-- and what the piece is, if you read it out in the lobby later, it is infused with love. And it is about how mothers and daughters drive each other crazy, and about being out on the beach. And then at the end, Sam sees her. And he's a little boy at the time. He's about six, I think. And he just runs to her. Nana, Nana, and he's just so excited because all he wants to do is, all he can think to do is help her get her bearings in the sand. Right? Because she's unsteady. Whereas I've written six pages about my, basically my own psychosis and all these extra sweaters. 
[00:50:13.02] And so I wrote it hoping that she would, that I would finally get to just A, tell the truth about her before she died. Because before that I'd always said, I'm going to write all these stories after my mom dies. You know, you'll notice I haven't written stuff about my aunts and uncles and my cousins. I am a family secret keeper. Like Frederick Buechner, my great hero's written a book called, is it called Family Secrets? 
[00:50:36.51] - Telling-- Telling Secrets? 
[00:50:39.78] - Secrets in the Dark. That's right. 
[00:50:40.80] - Secrets in the Dark. It's a great book. It is a life-giving book. And I never wrote about my parents like that or my family, my older brother, my brothers. And I was kind of banking on something that turned out not to have been something. It turned out it hurt her a great deal. And it enraged her, my Aunt Pat. My name's Anne Patricia, so my namesake, who I adore. 
[00:51:05.15] And my Aunt Pat called and said, you will never be forgiven for this. And in the entire town of Tiburon where we grew up, they mounted a letter writing campaign to both the Chronicle and the local paper. And my mother didn't talk to me. And then Bill Rankin, who's a Episcopalian-- how are you guys with Episcopalian? 
[00:51:24.45] - We're OK. 
[00:51:25.96] ANNE LAMOTT: You're OK? 
[00:51:26.41] - Yeah. Wesley was a Anglican before he was-- 
[00:51:29.55] ANNE LAMOTT: That's right. That's right. I forgot. 
[00:51:30.79] - Before he was one of us. 
[00:51:31.52] ANNE LAMOTT: That's right. 
[00:51:31.79] - Yeah. 
[00:51:32.76] - I forgot. I forgot he was one of you, actually. I was thinking Episcopalian. But he was Anglican. That's right. 
[00:51:40.59] - That's all right. 
[00:51:41.54] - Sorry. And he was a priest. And he had known my mom. And she always went to church on New Years-- Christmas Eve. New Years Eve. Wheee. Yah, Jesus. Whoo. But, on Christmas Eve for the candlelight mass. And he had known her. And he had watched me taking care of her for 10 years. And he wrote a letter. And it just said, I have never, in my years as a minister, seen anyone take more tender and consistent care of their mother than Anne Lamott has of hers. And it shut everybody up. But there are people in Tiburon that still consider me to be like Kitty Kelley, right, because of that one piece. 
[00:52:19.18] And it hurt her. And then, it was a really, really good thing I'd published it. And then we came through. And I sat with her. And she said, how do you think that made me feel? I said, I can only imagine. You know, I bet it made you feel humiliated. But you know, the truth is, I've never written about you because I've never wanting to say that you're getting older and that you're unsteady, you know, and that you need a lot. You need extra care now. And that sometimes you drive me crazy. I mean, my mother. 
[00:52:49.98] And we talked about it really for the first time. Because the story was a doorway through which we could walk. You know? It had slammed on us, slammed on us. And about three days later, there was great healing with me and my mother, great healing. And I have to say, my Aunt Pat, who is English, Anglican, it took about two years before I was invited to the holidays. And now she adores me and can't live without me. But you know, again, that was eight or nine years ago. 
[00:53:20.27] So, but for writers, all I can say is, you have to, you know, seek the truth inside your own heart. Is this OK or is it not OK. Most of the students I taught, many, many of the students I taught wanted to write because they had really, really been abused. And they had, I had a student, an Asian student whose mother had put his hand over the hot flame on the kitchen stove when he did badly in school. You know? All up until junior high, until other people got wind of it. 
[00:53:54.54] And I mean, I can't tell you how many women students I've had who were the person who went out to pick the switch from the backyard with which their father would punish them. And how many girls and women I knew who had been molested by their male relatives, by their fathers mostly, by ministers in the town that were their fathers and their uncles. And so the question is, is do you have to keep that a secret? Because it would be devastating to the person now. And I partly feel like if people don't want you to write about them, they should behave a lot better. 
[00:54:31.72] But I also feel that this is why fiction exists, so that this happens to the family across the street. And my experience is is that you change nationality, you change what the father or the mother does, you change dramatically what they look like. And then I want to tell you, this is my deepest belief. Every single thing that happened to you is yours. It's yours and you own it. And you don't have to keep their awful secrets for them anymore. 
[00:55:03.65] And nothing you can do-- you cannot be such a good son or such a good daughter that you can redeem their life if God and truth is not at the center of it. And you can dance til the cows come home. And it's not going to be able to redeem their lives for them. So, I paid through the nose to feel that-- it's amazing when somebody will tell the truth. And the person who's being told the truth about doesn't always love it. And so that is why you just have to get very quiet and say, is this OK. If not, fiction. 
[00:55:46.10] - Anne Lamott, thank you so much. 
[00:55:48.95] - You're so welcome.